Curse

Roshi_ikkyu · Jun 11, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

ensoriki
are u serious or just baiting for a flame thread?

Every valid point that has been raise, you alwats seem to offer a different version.

Is it possible that someone can reply to this thread questioning you opinion with out you having to prove them wrong?

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

I'm not trying to shoot people down or start a flame.

Im just saying, everything that the melee character can do the spellcasters can stop.

and everything the melee caster can offer to stop that like Daze means they have to get to the caster without Blind, without Snares and without being dead, which is kinda heard if your being attacked from a distance being 66% slowed, unless your an assassin, but by then your probably blind since BOA made you a more popular choice to kill than before.

Basically everything I said was.

How does the melee truly stack against smart casters who can stop them without them taking any damage from them. What does the warrior do against a deadly arts sin using Siphon Strength and Giving out blind or the ele who Blinds while the second ele Deep Freezes every1 who was in the location.

Lord Natural · Jun 11, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

I wouldn't say spellcasters have it too good. In fact their damage can be somewhat lacking, as most builds require some type of melee pressure to finish the job. If you're looking at things in a 1v1 perspective it seems like the warrior is at a disadvantage, but in the scope of a team build, melee pressure is usually the key.

As far as PvE goes, there's nothing to stop a warrior from dishing out some great dps other than the tank stereotype. The exception would be those areas with multiple curses necros, stance rangers, and so on. But that's why a team build includes casters as well.

Stormlord Alex · Jun 11, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Yes, anti-melee is easier to apply.
Why?

Because the melee is far more dangerous than spellcasters. It's balanced like that.

And tbh, I've never found adrenaline to be slow to build. Enraging Charge starts a warrior of with 4 strikes of adrenaline, and then it's only 4-5 more seconds of wailing in an IAS to get the 8 strikes needed to evis/exe someone. And as soon as you leave the scrub arenas, and teams are a slight more co-ordinated, it will be the spiking and great pressure of a warrior, as opposed to the burst of a 'sin, that will get the kills.

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I get what your saying Lord Natural.

But people don't Run Blind Bots for no reason, they don't run it thinking
If that Monk is blind his Light of Deliverance will miss his team mate and heal me -_- (although that be kinda cool) instead they run em because they know there will be melee, and im sure we all know a blind melee...has a 10% chance of being anything other then fodder.

Storm cloud ya warriors get more impressive out of stupid arenas but.
Necessarily more damage?

The benefits of warrior vs ele
Warriors have
+ damage ( some may under estimate it , but + isnt affected by armor)
Don't need to use energy

Ele
Puts out High damage output in exchange for great loss of energy.

I may be biased but because of my experience the warrior won't kill as fast as a proper assassin.

IN terms of Doing something longer a 20 second time-out sin (waits 20 secs to attack again) Isn't doing much

In that down time the warrior has killed 1 person, probably with help is moving on his second person.

Thats where I see the dps, but then the sin comes in

Sin Kills faster but the warrior will constantly be making the monk need to heal until their energy reserves start to dry thin.

Destinyy · Jun 11, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I hear you man, but when i play my war or my sin, I tend to stay away from those kind of chars... I promise you, not every ele/ran/mes/nec carries blind on them... When i play assa, I rarely have any problems, I just play smart... Don't run up to that SS necro when he's standing on his own OBVIOUSLY wanting u to approach him, wait for someone else to target him, or for him to target someone else, then move in for the quick kill...

Assa's land up blind half the time cos they impatient and try to play like a warrior... assa's should lurk around in the backline until the opportune moment to strike arrises, then they should strike... I play a melee/pressure class in my Thumper, I always carry a skill for being blinded with me, Irresistable Blow, KD's my target if I am blocked. Warrior has a skill that gives 3 strikes of adren if it is blocked... That said, even if I cannot gte round my blind, I switch targets a littl further away and take a bit of a jog while the blind wears off, then when i get to my target, BAM, the pounding starts...

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Destiny I understand what your saying I've been playing a sin for a year.

However, in a High-class position. How many people are going to not try to make sure the assassin isn't lurking the shadows.

I tried playing a spellcaster and the first thing I always looked for was an assassin, I didn't really care if I had abandon Unchained staring at me, 1 thing was far more important. I would Act as if I didn't notice him and when hes staying just out of radar range so he can shadow step to get me I ran up into his aggro and blinded him.

Sure sins are sneaky but not every1 is going to be so scatterbrained as not to notice.

iriyabran · Jun 11, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

ensoriki
are u serious or just baiting for a flame thread?

/agree
stop talking nonsense

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

wow cry me a river
stop talking nonsense

I would, but when tears/water hit my face I melt. Excuse me I have to find the wizard of oz.

IF you can't explain whats so nonsense of saying that

Spellcasters have advantages, and then not saying how the statement is false are you any better then a troll?

baz777 · Jun 11, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

One on one I can hold my own in RA with this build against most melee.

[skill]Elemental Attunement[/skill] [skill]Air Attunement[/skill] [skill]Blinding flash[/skill] [skill]Lightning Hammer[/skill] [skill]Lightning orb[/skill] [skill]Lightning bolt[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill] [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill]

High damage output with constant +10 hp regen.

By no means invincible but make a fair few back off.

The absolute worse for any caster is a good assassin, fortunately not that many around

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

what are those attributes
14 air
13 en
8 Earth P?

Stormlord Alex · Jun 11, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Yes, 'sins kill faster than warriors from the word 'GO'.
However, to do so, they rely on horribly fragile chains.

Their entire skillbar is devoted to this one maxim, and to making sure that they get off their chain, leaving almost no room for any kind of utility skills.

If their combo is interrupted, they're left doing tantamount to NOTHING untill their skills recharge. Base DPS of assassins is pathetic... If a warrior's attack skills are fizzled, he can shrug his shoulders and go axe someone else, still dealing respectable damage.

As for ele damage vs. warrior damage... Read Why Nuking Sucks, some thoughtful person posted a link earlier. It's a touch dated, and eles have improved significantly since then, but it still holds water.
The only thing I've found to do as a lone ele for decent damage is running some kind of Mind Blast bar, which can also accomodate a whole bunch of utility options. Mostly, eles are still used for utility - Water eles run pretty rampant in Guild battles.

Roshi_ikkyu · Jun 11, 2007, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

wow cry me a river
stop talking nonsense

I would, but when tears/water hit my face I melt. Excuse me I have to find the wizard of oz.

IF you can't explain whats so nonsense of saying that

Spellcasters have advantages, and then not saying how the statement is false are you any better then a troll?

Thats what I'm talking about!
A few of your replies haven't been as clear as you imply they are.

And then you go and get all aggressive about someone saying your post aren't making sense?
And you get aggressive with Wizard of OZ references... umm why?

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 01:03 PM // 13:03

I thought I posted above about how Sins kill faster but Warriors keep on attacking.
An assassin doesnt devote the Whole of his skillbar to the chain
However a large amount of it is.
skills are usually 3-5 skills out of 8
then 1 or 2 are heals/utility (defense)/enchant/hex
the last 1 being a rez if your not using a rez u add in another 1 of the above or chain.
_______________________________________

Riku, tell me the correct kidness of
wow cry me a river

and then tell me how
stop talking nonsense

Helps, some of the posts in here have been rather insightful such as the warrior posts which add more respect to what I currently have to the class. However some of the stuff you and iraya say don't add anything but problems.

I'm not clear with what I'm saying I apologize, however other thing's aren't needed.

-Loki- · Jun 11, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

This is not a 1v1 game.

Twinsoul · Jun 11, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Just because melee counters are obvious to someone who plays melee doesn't mean there aren't just as many counters to casters. Migraine? Daze? Any kind of interruption?

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 11, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

That is with Shadow Form. That works against EVERYTHING.

Lol thats not true there are several ways to shatter it without having to cast on the sin and then u have 1 super weak assassin ready for a quick death

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabe

Lol I feel sorry for Skuld in this thread. Come on guys surely you have seen how much damage a warrior does compared to a straight ele

Well ive seen how much damage my Warrior can do to a Jade Bow and ive seen how much damage my Ele can do to a Jade bow and i have to say my Ele does ALOT more damage to it than my warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

A fire elementalist kills far better than a warrior can ever hope to. the thing with warriors isn't that they are killing machines, but that they can survive major attacks without needing defensive skills while they do decent damage.

Very true, Warriors can do good damage but there real advantage is they can take damage without needing much in the way of defensive skills. The reason people use a Nuker instead of a AoE Warrior is because the Nuker will do more damage.

Caster dont have to deal with kiting as much more of there attacks are going to hit (unless using alot of AoE spells) it matters alot less if they are snared, but it does matter if they are drained of energy or the're shutdown.

If anything Casters are Easier to shutdown than Warriors, all u need is a KD or an interupt and u can cause real problems to Casters and Daze causes even more of a problem, Casters only real counter to Warriors are Blinds or Blocks. (Note ive ignored Hexes here since Hexes are good against both)

With no skills against a foe with no skills, Melee classes are going to do more damage there is no denying that

With skills against a foe with skills, a Caster is going to do more damage

Although alot less a problem in PvP, warriors suffer alot against targets with High AL, Casters suffer alot less especially ones with AL ignoring damage.

I wouldnt say Casters or Melee have it too good, A defeats B defeats C defeats A, Gw was made with lotsa of different skills for this very reason, use them wisely

Cebe · Jun 11, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

For PvP, the melee is king - generally warriors are seen as the masters of damage. Melee can spike better, deals more (and more consistent) damage, can provide utility and KD on the side, and gets to Deep Wound stuff with abandon.

Assassins and Warriors may be good in PvP...but I still beat a fair few of them with my Rit this weekend...you know what they say..."There Aint no Spike like a Rit Spike".

Sure, if a warrior brings the right skills they're very tough to take down and if they bring the right skills they can deal a fair bit of damage quite fast but at the same time they're much easier to shut down than casters.

I don't think casters do have it "too good"...I see the balance as being reasonable...Although, being a castery kind of person, I generally work better with an all-caster team, save General Morgahn, since Paragon buffs are useful. Most of Hard Mode so far has been done without the aid of a warrior, sin, ranger or dervish...although I'm thinking a Broad Head Arrow ranger wouldn't go a-miss for some of the later factions bosses. *cough* Wavecrest Stonebreak *cough*.

If only I could find a ranger worthy enough...

Xethrion · Jun 11, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

My Dragon Slash warrior pwns Jade Bows faster than any ele can. A constant string of +42 dmg skills on 33% IAS literally means I'm hitting 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 continuously til he drops, when FGJ! is active. I'd like to see any caster beat that.

PS : Do note that almost all of your PvP examples are taken from low end arenas, where the lack of a organized team most of the time makes sure that your anti-melee countermeasures stick.

However, when you go to more demanding forms of PvP, with characters dedicated to keeping Warriors clean of anti-melee conditions, Warriors are the most scary characters on the battlefield, BY FAR.

Have you ever wondered why there so many anti-melee countermeasures, as well as why top guild teams go to such lengths to keep their warriors clean of them? It's because the damage they can do outclasses almost anything else, even with the extra effort.

Cebe · Jun 11, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

My Dragon Slash warrior pwns Jade Bows faster than any ele can. A constant string of +42 dmg skills on 33% IAS literally means I'm hitting 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 continuously til he drops, when FGJ! is active. I'd like to see any caster beat that.

of course you can...Jade Bows have MASSIVE armor vs elemental damage...

But casters don't have the added complication of Whirling Defense.